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NOTE: Ths contains errors. Listen to the audio to hear his exact words. - And to me the meaning of man, as created by God, is to make each other happy. These two people did it and for me I would say God's blessing is upon them. And to finish with, I have the research work for my foundation. I have personally talked to about 50 older boys, adolescents young men who had sexual relations with men about their experiences, about their ideas afterwards about these years they had this religion. And I was most impressed by a very fine boy of 17 who had had six years of relationship with a man. This boy came from a very happy and good family. He loved his father, he loved his mother and he said to me, "Well, this man talking about his friend, he showed me what is the meaning of love." He said, "I love my mother, but it is in a different way. He showed me what is the meaning of love." And I think that is the finest witness, the finest testimony any pupil ever can give about his mentor, I think. - Dr. will be happy to take your questions now for your comments. - I have a very basic question. Could you explain pedophilia to me? Does it involve only homosexual relationships, heterosexual and nothing recruiting system. - No, pedophilia is everything. So you have four main categories you could say. You have the women, girl love, women, boy love, you have men, boy love, you have men, girl love. All four kinds are possible. I think historically and culturally, you see through the whole history that boy love has always had a special importance. It's most discussed. We know more about boy love by the other farms and fortunately we know very little about women girl relations. The last five years about fortunately, some women have started to talk about and to write about it. I think this is very important that it done about women, boy relations. We know a little bit more because in the sexual life of many men, there is a story of being initiated into sexual life by an adult woman and statistically the criminal statistics, I am a criminologist by self. I can say distressed criminal statistics, they're absolutely misleading. They gave no impression of the real amount of criminality at all but in the criminal statistics, there are more cases of men, girl relationships than about men, boy relationships which doesn't approve that men, girl relationships are really more frequent in society. - An incest. - Well incest you could say is a special category. It is the sexual relationship with an adult, with a child. Adult incest is more than all the other forms subject to the fear that there is abuse of authority. Every time authority comes into question, it is a rather uneasy affair. I know personally two cases of father son incest, which were excellent, where the boy afterwards said, "It was the most happy thing in my boyhood," but I can very well imagine it in many especially father daughter incest cases, the child is not happy at all and we had big congress on incest last year in and there was research done, and Professor Franken, the sexologist of Laden University, told that it was remarkable, very clear that if you ask girls afterwards grow up about their experiences with incest, the girls were nearly all negative about it while when you ask boys, most boys, the majority of the boys were positive about it. So there must be a very clear division here made between what happens to girls and what happens to boys. I think I go from here to there because otherwise it goes... - I want to make a comment about the public prosecutor who said this was her only tool to the man who has only a hammer, the whole world looks like a nail. I have a question about the term abuse of authority, which you used many times in your presentation. This is a term I think by and large unknown in America at least not often used. And I wondered if there was a parallel term in America that you might be able to relate that to. - No, I don't know much about your legal terms. - It is used in... - Your legal system is so different from ours that it's very difficult. I think the term in itself of abuse of authority is clear, isn't it? You are half as parent or as teacher or youth leader, or whatever, as clergyman, a priest, the minister may have authority over a child and if he imposes his authority to satisfy his own sexual inclinations against the will of the child, then this is abuse of authority. - I wonder if the term coercion would be appropriate there. I have heard the term under color of authority, but that usually means governmental. - Yes, the term abuse of authority is for instance, exactly so used in the German law, the present German penal law. Europe, it is in very accepted term, coercion is not exactly the same, isn't it? We have, we talk about coercion too in our law, making it illegal. There is a legal coercion, isn't it? Death can be also done on adult people. - I think maybe to make it clearer to quote, penal for the state of New Mexico where as far as sexual assaults are concerned in the age of 13 where it says between the child between the age of 13 and 16 and the actor is in position of authority over that child and uses that authority to coerce the child to submit. - Thank you. Yeah, in the back. - Yes, I'd like to know how you define what is consent, for example, for several really have the ability to consent relationship meaningful , has to do phenomenon, be an American phenomenon, because phenomenon of boy love in which boys are loved at a certain period of age and drop thereafter. Drama is tremendous. - Let's take that apart as a second question. First the question about what we could call the informed consent, isn't it? Is a child able to give informed consent? I think the demand of informed consent is not right. Up to our death, we all make decisions without informed consent. If people are marrying, they don't know all the consequences of marriage. If a boy is sent to military service, he have taken the voluntary military service, he doesn't know all the consequences. The choice of a profession is not done with knowing all the consequences. So I don't see why we should suddenly demand here something which we don't demand anywhere else, we don't ask for anywhere else. I think a child can know very well and that's the important thing with sexual affair, that if it wants to be touched by someone, by this man, that woman, if it wants to be touched in a certain way. And I think the only question about consent, which we would ask is, whether the child wants to be touched, approached that way and the child must have a liberty to stop it at any moment. That's another point for it. Once having said yes, that doesn't mean that it has to continue to say yes. So I think a child is completely able, even a baby already, isn't it? A baby shows from the first day of its life if it likes something or not, it hows, it laughs, it makes noises showing it displeased. From the first one, it can show whether it likes something or not. Of course a sexual activity with a child of young age, the younger children should be perfectly adapted to the child. I think the adult person is under obligation to adapt himself to the needs and the ones and the possibilities of the child. But you see in practice that pedophilia with younger children is not any penetrating activity but is hugging, cuddling, caressing, kissing and things like that, which a child perfectly accepts from a person he likes and where he is very bled and pleased with mostly see the expression of a child which is hurt by certain person he loves. You see the happy expression on his face, which is essential thing, skin contact. And now the second, your second question was the, oh yes, what happens... Of course it is a thing of boiler, of pedophilia in general that the child is attractive at a certain period of its life. This period passes by and so at a certain moment the child ceases to be sexually attractive to its adult friend. What happens then? There are all kinds of possibilities. It may be that the man certainly says, "Well, you are not attractive to me anymore. You can go." This is absolutely cruel and despicable, I think when the man does that. Starting a real relationship with someone, you cannot put an end to it like this. This is not the usual way it happens. Many times, it's child himself who says at a certain moment, I'm getting too old now. You find this already in the Roman literature, the Roman poets you find already, the boy certainly says to his male for, "Well, I'm getting too old now, I turn to girls, I don't want to to continue this." And in the cases I have seen many more times, the child has said, "I want to stop the sexual activities now," than the men has said so. When there is a good relationship about in two third of the cases, the relation continues, but the relation continues without radical activities between the two partners. I know many people who are closely related and intimate friends who have been lovers when one of them, the youngest of women was a boy that were now very good friends. The boy is married, even his his eldest son he has the name of his former love. Things like that happened regularly. And this the good case, the good relationship turns into friendship many times. Two third percent of the cases, two third of the cases, this is the case. - My experience as a psychotherapist case that I see our children are very appealing, and very loved , which their mental, and I worked with a lot of those kind of kids, they've been rejected for very bad lives. - This may happen and I think it is very bad and certainly one of the things that good in that movement should fight against and point out a responsibility. There is a heavy responsibility on the adult part in the relationships with your younger classes. - But was it the rejection that hurt the child or the previous sexual activity? I think that's what probably needs to be explored. A case like that. - I don't understand your question completely. - I mean, according to the psychologist, the psychotherapist, I'm just wondering if the child was hurt because he was rejected from the man or because he had sex in the past with that same man? - Well I think the rejection is hurting very much, the sexual activity in itself of not, but the certain rejection of course is very hurtful, would be hurtful to anyone, isn't it? To everyone. Yes, I come back to you. - One possible objection. I can see one way in which a child, adult sexual relationship could be potentially harmful. Let's say that, and I draw a parallel here with intellectual development. You take a child and in place upon the child demands for intellectual activity, which are above and beyond in terms of complexity, what the child can produce, you're going to do some damage to the child. If you try to teach a child grade four material that's in grade eight, it's going to bother the child making it easy. So in the same way, is it possible that you're going to hurt the child, upset the child by placing demands upon the child for behaviors and interactions which are maybe too complicated or too difficult for the child at that level to advance? - I think it's quite possible, yes, because a child has its development, not only physical develop development, physiological development, also its mental development. And the whole question of intimate relationships, only gradually the conceptions of it, the notions of it will enter a child's mind. For instance, the child's first experiences that it feels pleased by being touched by someone. Only gradually it'll discover that it is not equal who touches it, but that there are some persons, it is more pleasant to be touched by than by other persons. Strangers are not so pleasant as the parents for instance or close family or close friends. Only later on the child will discover that the person who touches him in a pleasant way, feels pleased himself by doing that. And that the person touching it in a certain way, expresses feelings of liking and love for him. And before you come to the situation that you see that it is pleasing to me that he is pleased by touching me. That there lot of complicated situation and the child will take many years before this understands completely. I think of a boy of the same boy I quoted here who said, "This man taught me the meaning of love." That same boy was 12 when he consented to anal intercourse. And he said to me, "I knew at the moment I said to my friends, you may do it to me." I knew at the moment it would hurt me, but I loved him so much that I thought, "Well if it's so pleasure to do him so fine for him, I will take the pain it may cause me." I think this boy had a 12 reached a kind of psychosexual development, which is really admirable for a kid of that age because most boys just impurity are very egocentric. It's very logic. I think that they're very egocentric at that time. They have to find a new situation in life. They have to emancipate themselves, they have to fight for themselves. It is a battle that they have with the whole environment. So they are egocentric. I don't think you can re poach a boy at this age for being egocentric a child of 12, which is able to this way of thinking is really admirable I think, but not many children of that age would be, and then it must not be done to them. You must not ask for him to sexual activity which he's not up to do as a real abandoning himself to this kind of activity. Now you are first now I think. - I just wanna make a comment on the psychiatrist, the child psychologist back there about people who break up with their lovers. First of all, if this is something that happens in any relationship as between a man or a woman or a girl and a boy, or a girl and a man and a woman and a boy, this is part of living, people become attracted to each other and they might in the course of events break up. It may be because of some personality reason or may be a attractiveness. But I don't think the whole question of this whole thing, I don't think the doctors here as an advocate of boy love, so much as it is the advocate of people to do as they pleased with their bodies. And I don't think the question is so much as saying, "Oh well gay is good or hetero is good," or anything like that. It's a right of people, regardless of their age to engage in sexual relationships without the state interfering. And to say that there could be problems in a relationship like that, there could be problems in any relationship among people and the more intimate a relationship becomes, the more complicated they can become. But I don't believe that the state should step in because in a consensual relationship, there may be emotional problems developing. I think this is the freedom of the individuals to act out because someone may be traumatized by say a breakup. I don't think that's a case where the state should come in whether it's prisons and send people to jail. I think... - Can we go to another question. - And about two or three more questions? I think we've done a lot talking about children and these relationships. It's very hard for me to say, this is how children feel or a lover will know how his younger lover, let's say is feeling relationships. My concern regard is more for the older person involved. That's for the sake of assumption and argument and knowledge. Say it's a man loving young boy. If this is the case where this man is loving a series of love of thumb void, where every relationship this man enters has to be some sort of disproportionate, let's say power relationship or age relationship where this man doesn't have nearly one friendship with a young boy that matures into an older relationship. It becomes a series like the example you gave in your case of the 11-year-old twins and 10 year old boy. This is my concern. How do we as a society help this person into a full relationship or can these be full loving relationships enough for this older man to really function as a happy person. It's just very difficult for me to imagine that sort of lifestyle being fulfilling of a long period of time, both for the man and for the woman. - I think that the finest relationship in a sexual relationship is a lasting continued relationship between two persons. But this is my imagination. I see in practice that there are people who are feeling quite happy. There's quite other situations that there are people happy in promiscuity for instance. And I think it's very difficult to judge upon that. The only thing I can answer you that, the whole difficulty with all sexuality, each of us feels attracted by certain qualities in certain people. No one of us can love all human beings he meets on the street. We have all certain preferences. We see nice persons attractive to us and less nice persons, while certain quantities are so attractive to us and not attractive to us, is quite mysterious. And I can, with my intellect, with my brain, I can very well know that there are other peoples who feel otherwise denied but I cannot put myself into his or her place. That is the difficulty always when we are talking about it. Now making in kind of or kind of dogma about my personal preferences and say everything else is abnormal or they're queer, whatever you can say about, this I think is absolutely stupid. And if you try to make a law of your own lack of imagination and impose that upon others, that's really immoral but I cannot put myself into the places, I have to accept simply that there are other people's feeling in a way which is to me rather inconceivably and may even do things and like things which I personally would think disgusting, certainly want to arrive today. I think a real tolerance is very necessary, yes. - I speak to someone who's loved by men. Wonderful period of talk about isn't it simple like the child speak themselves, fascism when want - Controversy, one of things has struck me about controversy in the area of human sexuality is that one of the subject that upsets us. He just gets at the idea that we dunno very much about, there's a lot yet explore. I think I wanna raise two ideas here that make this controversial. One is the idea that children are not . And that leaves us to the idea that we're gonna protect children. That's one way to, in all attempts to protect children from subjects such as this are really attempt to protect adults from dealing with. The second is that we deal with sexuality as though it's subject of particular behaviors, rather a quality of embodiment, rather than the quality of being at home with one's body in such a way that sexuality can be . And I think those two categories make this most difficult for us because we don't understand anymore. - I quite agree with you. I could add a third point that is what you already mentioned where a section itself is something good or bad, but a lust pleasure is something good or bad. When we think that lust, pleasure, sexual pleasure, joy is something dirty, bad, below the dignity of mankind, then of course we should protect children against it. I know it was one speaking to parents of an elementary school and suddenly one mother exclaimed, "You don't give poison to your children, why give them sex?" I said, "Well if sex is poison to you, you are quite right and not giving it to your, not allowing it to your children, isn't it?" But I certainly, I disagree with you on this point. I don't think sex is poison, on the contrary, I think it's a very nice and good thing and so to me I cannot understand that the religious people who think that this world is made by an all wise and all good creator, could ever think when this creator has filled it completely with sexuality everywhere in all kind of forms and imaginations that this could be something bad or low or beastly. - I was in a political organization which was dealing with the problem of children's rights and basically we decided to nothing because of controversy that arose and the comment I made there I want to make here, I think it is very hard to argue persuasively for the rights of children to choose when we live in a society and culture where children cannot even be imagined to have any rights. - Certainly, quite right. I can say one thing now in the Dutch law, is that when parents divorce, there must be a decision to whom the children are interested. And the Dutch law now states that from 12 years old, the judge is obliged to hear the child, hear the opinion of the child to who it should be entrusted. Below 12 the judge is free do so, but children of 12 years and over, and there you see at least some kind of a really important question where the law takes the opinion of the child very seriously. - We have one last question. - Alright then I'd like to thank Dr. for appearing this evening and I think... END OF TAPE |